Poll: PADI to allow teaching only computers in OW classes

[Captain Randy]

Originally Posted by outback

ROFLMAO X 2!
The other thing that I see is that it might produce some issues down the road as divers increase in experience - ie, once you go the tech route, you move back to full planning and taking responsibility for your dive - will this act as a barrier to people moving to that level? (and is that a bad thing or not?)

I usually find that I have to reteach the tables in any tech class I do. Part of this is people becoming to reliant on computers part is that we introduce different tables.

Randy

[EasyDiver]

I learned tables in 1982 when they still had decompression stops on them. I think if you actually learn them then like a bicycle you never forget, not like they do not have directions printed on them. as for the different tables, the USN are self explanatory, and all the ones in the TDI course seem obvious to me, time, depth, stop time simple.
now there are a few caveats that seem to be specific to individual tables like Padi does not like anyone to go near a limit and requires the optional stops, and the Navy tables require you to get command permission before certain dives (can I just ask my wife?).

The really valuable part of the tables, (I think I have said this here) is the information between the lines. and the differences between the tables, the gray area, to know how big it is, and what the absolute limits are, your computer is not capable of teaching you that. the whole concept is a theory and that in reality your body does not conform to the theory exactly.

There is a law of science, if your theory does not encompass all the measured points then it is wrong (paraphrase). Dive theory is wrong, we use it because it mostly works and we do not yet have better ones (there are multiple dive theories all wrong). things like hydration, mood, nutrition, body mass all are factors on the rate at which N2 moves in and out of solution. if you are not entering these factors into your computer then it is just guessing how long you should be at any given level.

[Sushi Boy]

Originally Posted by EasyDiver

if you are not entering these factors into your computer then it is just guessing how long you should be at any given level.

Sure, but doesn't that apply to the tables as well?

[EasyDiver]

Originally Posted by Sushi Boy

Sure, but doesn't that apply to the tables as well?

absolutely. we do not know how close we are to flying in an orange bus. at least with knowing the tables if my computer dies, and I know what the listed limits are at the depth I have been, I can work out a strategy to get to the surface that has as good a chance of success as possible. without that I might just say "wow, dead freaking computer, POS! (signal buddy, wavy hand, point to POS on wrist). thumbs up, lets see I have been here at about 85-95 ft about 30 minutes, I think I should be ok with a 3 minute safety stop." (actual dive requires deco of 27 minutes and 14 more CF of air)

[chairmanTARAC]

Great thread,anybody notice that we are having the same problem with the new generation who always get thier directions from a gps device a never learn how to read an actual map.

[drdiver]

The value of learning tables is that you also learn (hopefully) a physiological picture of what is happening to your body as it loads and unloads nitrogen. This is useful even if never use tables again.

[rigdiver]

Originally Posted by drdiver

The value of learning tables is that you also learn (hopefully) a physiological picture of what is happening to your body as it loads and unloads nitrogen. This is useful even if never use tables again.

The old EDGE dive computer actually had graphics of the 12(theoretical) tissue groups in your body. It was neat to watch the pixels load up as you went down and disappear on the way up. The USN only used a few(3 or 4) for their tables with regard to tissue groups. The 60 minute tissue group was used for the SI table. 6 half-lifes and you were "clean" or 12 hours. Buhlman of course used 16 groups in one of his models. Tables and computers are of course still empirical. What works works.
Bill

[drdiver]

Originally Posted by rigdiver

The old EDGE dive computer actually had graphics of the 12(theoretical) tissue groups in your body. It was neat to watch the pixels load up as you went down and disappear on the way up. The USN only used a few(3 or 4) for their tables with regard to tissue groups. The 60 minute tissue group was used for the SI table. 6 half-lifes and you were "clean" or 12 hours. Buhlman of course used 16 groups in one of his models. Tables and computers are of course still empirical. What works works.
Bill

That's interesting about the Edge. I suppose most things involved in physiology like drug half lives, responses to medications, stresses are empirical. I imagine that a computer that would factor in data from ultrasound Doppler microbubble data taken from the diver is not far off the horizon. And it probably won't keep anyone from getting bent either...